View Full Version : God and State
12-19-2005, 07:20 PM
It is becoming evident that this forum does not support religous sentiment being intertwined with political action. Seems odd to me, as a matter of fact I would challenge anyone to debate me on whether any political movement is in fact secular as it may claim to be. What is the definition of religon; a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor. Nevermind any theistic ideas you may entertain I'm reffering to the great politics Nietzsche spoke of, the new religion, the new man, the Superman. Thereing lays one of the cornerstone teachings of fascism; that religion must evolve. Even old Adolf remarked once that,
"Anyone who understands National Socialism only as a political movement knows virtually nothing about it. It is even more than religion. It is the will to create a new man." Please dont respond with some knee jerk reaction, think about what I'm saying, I dont mean to step on any sacred cows in this forum, I just really feel if we examine this issue we will agree that religion, whichever one it may be does and should play a role in political life. As a matter of fact I personally belief that the ideological wars we see being fought today and in the past are simple the theological grandchildren of religion. Take for example the fascist admiration of discipline and authority, no doubt a flower that has bloomed from the Protestant Reformation, which taught the inharent duty of man to obey God, even if it cost him his life. The existence or non-existence of God is the most important question we humans are ever called to answer. If God does, and if in consequence we are called to another life when this one ends, a momentous set of consequences follows, which should affect every day, every moment almost, of our earthly existence. Our life then becomes a mere preparation for eternity and must be conducted throughout with our future in view. If on the other hand, God does not exist, another momentous set of consequences follows. This life then becomes the only one we have, we have no duties or obligations except to ourselves, and we need weigh no other considerations except our own interest and pleasures. There are no commands to follow except what society imposes upon us, and even these we may evade if we can get away with it. In a Godless world, there is no obvious base for altruism of any kind, moral anarchy takes over and the rule of self prevails.
God may or not exist, but until he logs into this forum and speaks for himself I prefer the trappings of a secular world.
01-04-2006, 06:19 PM
Thats wonderful, you prefering it and all. But my politics are not platonic, theology andideology is my bread and butter. Perhaps since you prefer a secular world you could tell me why civility, morality, ethics and other such whims are enacted upon society in the first place. Where do these ideas come from? "Herd Instinct", as Nietzsche suggested, a social contract as Roussel suggested? And could you please provide the page in the Constitution, orBill of Rights, where "seperation of church and state" is mentioned? Here's a hint, try the personal writtings of Thomas Jefferson.
I respect your right to believe and to live by your beliefs. Throughout history religion has given the world much in the way of morality as well as the inspiration that is the foundation of culture. Likewise religion has a dark side that any reader of history would surely know. I have no quarrel with you or God.
01-04-2006, 11:48 PM
...seems odd to me, as a matter of fact I would challenge anyone to debate me on whether any political movement is in fact secular as it may claim to be. What is the definition of religon; a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor..
In this case, I agree in the sense that the West has become too accomodating, lukewarm, flabby, lost faith in itself--in a word. "liberal."
Jean Raspail, author of "The Camp of the Saints." put it thus:
"Two opposing camps. One still believes. One doesn't. The one that still has faith will move mountains. That's the side that will win. Deadly doubt has destroyed all incentive in the other. That's the side that will lose."
For complete "An Interview With Jean Raspail," see
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?arti (http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=412) cleID=412
Incidentally, "The Camp of the Saints" (The Social Contract Press edition, 1995) should be required reading.
01-05-2006, 05:23 AM
There's an outstanding column by the often keenly perceptive Chilton Williamson, Jr. in the latest issue of Chronicles magazine(Jan. '06) that deals with this topic in a secular way, namely how Western people have lost their sense of wonder, belief and faith, and as a result there is a dearth of men of "gentility, learning, sensibility, manners, dress, moral seriousness, a presence of self." A highly recommended read.
01-05-2006, 02:25 PM
Thanks for reporting that, Don. And everyone, may I point out that this "wonder, belief and faith" cannot simply be put in anything. Try as one may to find a substitute, it's an unassailable fact that our people have risen highest and thrived longest when their societies were officially, openly, deeply, freely Christian. Their faith was in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and in his gift of salvation from sin and damnation uniquely through the atoning work of his Son, Jesus Christ, i.e. his bloody and agonizing death on the cross at Calvary byvery bigoted and discriminatoryJews and self-deifying Roman emperors.
More precisely, thishas beenthe faith of the common people, and while the politicians have put their faith in money, munitions and Baal, they've known all along they'd better at least pretend adherence to the common people's uncommon Savior.
To me, the truth of the Scriptures is self-evident -- not that it always was. I've come to it kicking and screaming, not sure I wanted a change of opinion and lifestyle across the board. And I covet this faith for all of you because I knowthat it's real. But even those who scoff at it have to admit thathistory is as I say. I'm mystified that they don't embrace it on that basis alone -- really, there's nothing for busting up tyranny like the straight, uncut Christian gospel! Nothing! An admitted problem is that most churchgoers want nothing to do withreal Christianityeither, but truth is truth regardless. The Scriptures cover that too -- they show organized religion resisting and trampling the true Faith, and stoning the prophets and saints from the beginning.
Everybody puts "wonder, belief and faith" in something -- some in Allah, some in Buddha, some in the Bush-Clinton power mafia, some in their peacher (sic), some in money, some in Lucifer, some in Led Zeppelin, some in the Associated Press. "Wonder, belief and faith" is not what's lacking -- the "faith of our fathers" (and mothers) is.
......This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Tim 1:15
Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev. 1:6
Edited by: nelson
01-05-2006, 10:28 PM
Hi Womack, You can certainly be counted on to pick good
In discussing religion, I believe that distinctions need to be made
between a religious experience that promotes human consciousness
as our Creator intended this to flourish, or the form in which a
piesthood uses religion as the means for controlling a flock by
arresting that consciousness, and relegating them to the status of
The Muslims have fused their body politic w/ religious faith to strong
effect; one which I fear will create serious problems here in the USA
as the American populace continues it's slide into moral decline and
decadence. The Islamists, who who are dogmatic & free from the
constraints of Political Correctness, are currently proceding with their
colonization of parts of America through immigration, and could
easily conquer this society in the future: Not because they're stronger
or brighter, but through the default left by America's moral
Edited by: TeeJay
01-10-2006, 05:04 AM
Most liberals and even conservatives who say they don't believe in religion in politics are actually just as guilty of violating the non-existant "seperation of church and state" policy as any Christian who may want to publicly show his beliefs in the workplace. They create their own religion and promote it through their own means, whether it takes the form of recognizable religion to most of us or not. Everyone has a god that they serve. Edited by: Colonel_Reb
01-10-2006, 01:17 PM
A brilliant observation, Reb. Everybody has a religion and many "isms" of a philosophical nature are exactly that. Secular humanism has been declared a religion in court rulings, but it was such before any court took notice of the fact -- and this is of course the new national religion, rigidly enforced by its FUNDAMENTALISTS who professed to be combating fundamentalism. Google-search secular humanism is a religion and also atheism is a religion for the gold, gang!
At the very time every liberal media outlet (and many a politician) self-righteously babbles about "Islamic fundamentalists" and "fundamentalist Christians" (etc.) as an embarrassment to enlightened humankind and something to be ushered off the nearest cliff as soon as possible, they are modeling and epitomizing rabid, wild-eyed fundamentalism themselves, even if doing so in the guise of buttoned-up talking-head urbanity.
Similarly, even as these people hold up the crusades of the middle ages as the depths of depravity and barbarity (which, alas, they often were), they are fomenting new, infinitely gorierand stupider crusades -- presently against Ayrabs, but the liquidation of Christians is on the way too.
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=court&num=10&hl=en &btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=humanism+is+a+religi on&am p;am p;as_oq=ruling+rulings&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as _filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as _sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=court&num=10&hl=en &btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=humanism+is+a+religion& am p;as_oq=ruling+rulings&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as _filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as _sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images )
Edited by: nelson
01-13-2006, 02:51 PM
It is becoming evident that this forum does not support religous sentiment being intertwined with political action.
It was hard to decide where to post this next item, till I looked at this thread again and saw the words with which it began one action-packed month ago.
You who want to go the distance in truth exposition (this time in the reading of it) are invited to go to http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.htmland run your digital hands through one or more of Westboro Baptist Church's articles, in particular A Message From WBC to Lawmakers on Legislation Regarding Her Counter-Demonstrations at Funerals of Dead Soldiers (http://www.godhatesfags.com/writings/20051212_legislation-message.pdf). Have just gotten itfrom veteran freedom warrior (and tyrant tweaker) John Kucek (thanks, John). It covers a huge array of bedrock issues in a few calm but explosive paragraphs. This adventure is NOT for readers that still entertain thoughts that the war has a shred of justification or that "gay is good".
All I want is the truth, and in my humble estimation these people have it by the truckload. Our editor wasn't sure he wanted to let me profile the Westboro people in Dixie Diary (Pastor Fred Phelps and company) but am not aware there have been any repercussions from doing so. Actually I think every one of you is capable of reading the above article without the sky falling in. I don't agree with WBC on everything (e.g. their picketing the Sago mines funerals) but what they do well far outweighs the bad -- IMHO.
The abovementioned Dixie Diary text available on request.
01-20-2006, 04:07 AM
Hey, gang -- nationalist legend Joseph Sobran is a "fanatic" too, sort of like....../\/
<H1><BIG></BIG>Is Darwin Holy?<BIG></BIG></H1></DIV>
http://sobran.com/columns/2005/spacer.gif“The great sociologist of religion Emile Durkheim called the contrast between the sacred and the profane the widest and deepest of all contrasts the human mind is capable of making,” wrote the late Robert Nisbet. “Everything above the level of the instinctual, Durkheim concluded, began in human veneration, awe, reverence of the sacred — be it a god, spirit, grove of trees, or lake or stream. Religion in the sense of gods, churches, liturgies, and bibles emerged in due time from the primitive sacred essence. So did the rest of human culture, its signs, symbols, words, drawings, and acts.”
http://sobran.com/columns/2005/spacer.gifA fascinating observation. I happened to run across it while I was marveling at the curious evangelical zeal of those who want Darwinism taught in the public schools but want to ban the teaching of intelligent design. Why do they care so much? Apparently nothing is holy, but Darwin is Holy Writ.
http://sobran.com/columns/2005/spacer.gifI used to believe in evolution myself, but I took no joy in it. Who could? If atheism is true, then nothing really matters — not even atheism. Even as a kid I could see that. In my atheistic days I thought nothing quite as silly as the militant atheist. I loved the story of Jesus and the Catholic Church, I regretted losing my faith, and I couldn’t understand people who could be enthusiastic about living in a cold, godless universe. I tried to make art — especially Shakespeare and Beethoven — my consolation prizes for the religion I’d lost. At least they made me feel as if I had a soul, even if the cheerless dogma of Darwin said otherwise.
http://sobran.com/columns/2005/spacer.gifThen, as a young adult, I met two astounding people who might as well have come straight from heaven on wings of angels. They were my first two children. I could believe that the rest of the human race, myself included, were accidents of mere matter, but it was soon obvious to me that these two had immortal souls, and that I was responsible for them. Life undeniably had a purpose after all — not survival, but love.
http://sobran.com/columns/2005/spacer.gifIt wasn’t just that I loved these kids; far more important, God loved them and expected me to teach them about his love. Not to do so would have been the worst form of neglect. And in teaching them that God loved them, I realized that he loved me the same way, and always had, even when I hadn’t thought about him and denied his existence...................
http://sobran.com/columns/2005/051229.shtmlEdited by: nelson
01-21-2006, 04:28 AM
Good article Nelson. It illustartes what I was saying in my earlier post. At least this guy realized the error of his thinking and decided to follow God before it was too late.
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