Nelson, this quasi "worship" of Mary and the Saints are a key issue I've always had with the Catholic church. I revere Mary as the earthly mother of Christ, but she is nowhere</span> near his equal... as the Lord could have chosen other women to bear the Savior. I also don't like the idea of (mandatory) confessing sins to a man</span> (for repentance). I believe that Jesus is the only</span> intercessor needed to/for God, and confession of sins is needed primarily* to God (via Christ).
* = If someone chooses to confess a sin (adultery, etc.) to a wronged party, that's one thing...but to mandate required confession to a clergyman isn't Biblically required.</span>
I also take issue with "the Church" being held as required for redemption/entry into Heaven. IMO, only</span> acceptance of Christ (as Son of God & personal Savior) and confession/repentance of sins to God are required for redemption. There's too much dogma and traditions of man in the Catholic church (& many other denominations) in my humble opinion. I'm a KJV following, fundemental Baptist, so I'm not big on the fancy trappings of mega-churches or the (man-made) ceremony of the Catholic church.
Edited by: DixieDestroyer
See, world? Pure nationalist common sense -- that's what we give you in this site. Or as we used to call it in the 1990s, populism.
Mary is indeed, per the Scriptures, as dead as anyone else born mortal and sinful. Her body is moldering in the grave and (in my and Martin Luther's studied opinion) her soul doesn't even exist anywhere until it, with my grandfolks' and yours, will be summoned on Judgment Day to appear before the great white throne. While we should revere here and deeply appreciate her obedience to God's call, to worship her would be nothing short of blasphemy.
Same with other saints -- true. Although I suspect God in his mercy recognizes praying to saints as an easy mistake to make in this chaotic world and recognizes good intentions there with many people rather than idolatry/superstition.
Formal "confession" to a preacher creature is another Catholic pushing of the envelope to the breaking point. Yes yes yes we are to confess our sins to their victims and, as needed, make a clean breast of them to our local Christian community -- but that's something completely different.
Churches must not become objects of idolatry, either. In America we're blessed with something unique in all history -- a cherished tradition of freedom of thought and inquiry and religion. People who slavishly, uncritically ingurgitate church doctrine are a sad case if not a danger to public order. In the real world, I believe many people are helped by believing their church is necessary in life -- studies show churchgoers are happier and live longer. But more discernment and "searching of the Scriptures" individually is desperately needed -- hence "Christian" Zionism, dispensationalism and all that rot.
One of the things that most shocks me along these lines is one of the options for "absolution" in the Lutheran Church / Missouri Synod (LCMS). As scripted in the otherwise excellent LCMS hymnal, the preestie has the option of either declaring</span> Christ's absolution (standard in virtually all other denominations) or actually professing to grant</span> it:
"Upon this your confession, I, by virtue of my </font></span><st1:cnetkwd style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">office</font></span></st1:cnetkwd>, as a called and ordained servant of the </font></span><st1:cnetkwd style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">Word</font></span></st1:cnetkwd>
announce the grace of God unto all of you, and in the stead and by the
command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins </span>in the name
of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." </span>
No Catholic preestie would even say such a thing -- but there it is, and the more prepossessing LCMS preesties say it every Sunday, just like that! The first time I noticed it was a shock. A much bigger shock was that no LCMS pew-warmer I pointed it out to found anything wrong with this grossly un-Lutheran, anti-Protestant shtick! You wouldn't believe the lame dodges and excuses people tried to make for it, the grand prize being "Well..... that's how it's been since I was a girl!"
The obvious implication is that Christ isn't actually present. It's atheist or deist or something. "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:28).....
He is messed up in the head, that guy. "the Vatican's highest priority for Europe has been recovery of the continent's Christian identity" -- BULLFEATHERS. The Vatican's highest priority for everywhere is socialism, "redistribution" of wealth, and PC-mania generally.
I used the p-word in the dictionary sense -- "</span>representation or extolling of the common person, the working class, the underdog, etc." Didn't know there was a Catholic movement or trend under that moniker. Good!
Whew, wild scandal circling around yet another Catholic secret (?) society. AOL news dubs the Legion of Christ "ultra-conservative", but of course it's always liberals that champion pedophilia in (e.g.) the porn industry and NAMBLA.
<h1 style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">International Probe Targets Secretive Catholic Group</h1> http://www.aolnews.com/world/article...-catholic-orde r-founded-by-accused-pedophile-under-fire/19398262
(March 14) -- As sex abuse scandals rock the Vatican, the results of an
investigation into a rich, ultra-conservative and secretive Roman
Catholic order founded by a priest accused of pedophilia and incest are
due to be filed in Rome on Monday.</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">The sordid story of the
Legion of Christ, whose late founder, the Rev. Marcial Maciel
Degollado, was a close ally of Pope John Paul II before being forcibly
retired by the Vatican in 2006, is a microcosm of the crisis currently
enveloping the church.</span><br style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);"><br style="color: rgb(102, 0, 0);">At stake is whether Pope Benedict XVI
will decide to take over the Legion and install new leaders from the
outside or allow it to continue with its same hierarchy. Five bishops
from five countries are expected to submit their reports about the
Legion on Monday.</span>............
Edited by: Nelson3
Clergy abuse threatens to tarnish pope's legacy</font>
By VICTOR L. SIMPSON
The Associated Press
Friday, March 26, 2010;
VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican is facing one of its gravest crises of
modern times as sex abuse scandals move ever closer to Pope Benedict XVI
- threatening not only his own legacy but also that of his revered
Benedict took a much harder stance on sex abuse than John Paul II when
he assumed the papacy five years ago, disciplining a senior cleric
championed by the Polish pontiff and defrocking others under a new
policy of zero tolerance.
But the impression remains of a woefully slow-footed church and of a
pope who bears responsibility for allowing pedophile priests to keep
In an editorial on Friday, the National Catholic Reporter in the United
States called on Benedict to answer questions about his role "in the
mismanagement" of sex abuse cases, not only in the current crisis but
during his tenure in the 1980s as archbishop of Munich and then as head
of the Vatican's doctrinal and disciplinary office.
It all comes down to the question of what the pope knew and when. The
answer will almost certainly determine the fate of Benedict's papacy.
As he approaches Holy Week, the most solemn period on the Christian
calendar, victims groups and other critics are demanding Benedict accept
personal responsibility. A few say he should resign.
Some fear the crisis will alienate Catholics from the church, with a
survey in Benedict's native Germany already showing disaffection among
Catholics while there is deep anger in once very Catholic Ireland.
As the climate worsens, the Vatican is showing increasing impatience and
even anger, denouncing what it says is a campaign to smear the pope.
L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, said this week there was a
"clear and despicable intention" to strike at Benedict "at any cost."
But as attention focuses on Benedict, a perhaps thornier question looms
over how much John Paul II, beloved worldwide for his inspirational
charisma and courageous stand against communism, knew about sex abuse
cases and whether he was too tolerant of pedophile priests.
John Paul presided over the church when the sex abuse scandal exploded
in the United States in 2002 and the Vatican was swamped with complaints
and lawsuits under his leadership. Yet during most of his 26-year
papacy, individual dioceses and not the Vatican took sole responsibility
for investigating misbehavior.
Professor Nick Cafardi, a canon and civil lawyer and former chairman of
the U.S. bishops lay review board that monitored abuse, said Benedict
was "very courageous" to reverse Vatican support for the Legionaries of
Christ, a sex scandal-tainted organization staunchly defended by John
John Paul was already ailing from Parkinson's disease when the U.S.
scandal erupted, a factor supporters say may have kept him from
initially realizing its scope.
While Cardinal Bernard Law became the most high-profile church figure to
fall, resigning as archbishop of Boston over the scandal, John Paul
gave him a soft landing, appointing him as head of a Rome basilica and
keeping him on various Vatican committees.
The world-traveling John Paul has been put on a fast track for sainthood
by Benedict in response to popular demand. Cardinal Jose Saraiva
Martins, the emeritus head of the Vatican's saint-making office, said
this week that historians who studied the pope's life didn't find
anything problematic in John Paul's handling of abuse scandals.
"According to them there was nothing that was a true obstacle to his
cause of beatification. They are very strict," Saraiva Martins said.
For Benedict, a quiet intellectual who will be 83 next month, the
scandal must be trying.
Until recently, Benedict had received high marks for his handling of sex
abuse - seen as a bright spot amid turmoil over his remarks linking
Islam to violence and his rehabilitation of an ultraconservative bishop
who denies the Holocaust.
Shortly before his election as pope in 2005 he had denounced "filth" in
the church - widely viewed as a reference to clerics who abused
children. He proclaimed a policy of zero tolerance for offenders and met
and prayed with victims while traveling in the United States and
Benedict won praise for moving against the Legionaries of Christ, the
conservative order once hailed by John Paul that fell into scandal after
it revealed that its founder had fathered a child and had molested
The Vatican began investigating allegations against the Rev. Marcial
Maciel of Mexico in the 1950s, but it wasn't until 2006, a year into
Benedict's pontificate, that the Vatican instructed Maciel to lead a
"reserved life of prayer and penance" in response to the abuse
allegations - effectively removing him from power.
But reaction changed as the abuse scandal moved across Europe and into
Benedict's native Germany in recent months, touching the pontiff himself
with a case dating to his tenure as archbishop of Munich.
The former vicar general of the Munich archdiocese has absolved the pope
of responsibility in the case of the Rev. Peter Hullermann, accused of
While then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was involved in a 1980 decision to
transfer Hullermann to Munich for therapy, Ratzinger's then-deputy took
responsibility for a subsequent decision to let the priest return to
pastoral duties. Hullermann was convicted of sexual abuse in 1986.
However, the New York Times reported Friday that Ratzinger was copied in
on a memo stating Hullermann would be returned to pastoral work within
days of beginning psychiatric treatment. The archdiocese insisted
Ratzinger was unaware of the decision and that any other version was
In another case, documents show the Vatican office responsible for
disciplining priests, while headed by Ratzinger, halted a church trial
of a Milwaukee priest accused of molesting some 200 deaf boys from
Two Wisconsin bishops had urged the Vatican to approve the proceeding
against the Rev. Lawrence Murphy, arguing that even though it was years
after the alleged abuse, the deaf community in Milwaukee was demanding
justice. The trial was approved in 1997, only to be halted after an
appeal by the priest to Ratzinger. Murphy died in 1998.
Murphy's eventual punishment was a restriction on celebrating Mass and
on visiting the deaf community.
Such light disciplinary measures remain the norm in the majority of sex
Of the 3,000 cases the Vatican has received since 2001, only 20 percent
have gone to a full canonical trial, the Vatican's chief prosecutor
Monsignor Charles Scicluna said. Disciplinary sanctions were imposed in
60 percent, such as priests being ordered to live a retired life of
prayer and not celebrate Mass publicly; in only 10 percent were the
accused priests defrocked.
The abuse crisis in the United States, which involved 4 percent of the
American priesthood, showed a pattern of bishops covering for errant
clerics, at times moving them from parish to parish. The latest
documents point to Vatican complicity, although the Vatican denies there
was any cover-up.
Defenders of Benedict, such as British Archbishop Vincent Nichols, say
that as cardinal he made important changes in church law to crack down
on offenders and was not an "idle observer."
French bishops rallied around Benedict in a letter on Friday, saying
while they deplored clerical sex abuse, the issue "is being used in a
campaign to attack you personally."
Still, it is in Germany where Benedict's popularity has taken a real
A poll in Stern magazine released this week shows only 39 percent of
Germany's Catholics trust the pope, down from 62 percent in late
January. Some 34 percent trust the Catholic church as an institution,
down from 56 percent in January. The margin of error was 2.5 percentage
Rainer Kampling, a professor of Catholic theology at Berlin Free
University, says the idea that the pope might resign - slipping polls
not withstanding - is hardly realistic. "The pope is not a politician,"
Herbert Kohlmaier, chairman of an Austrian Catholic group that has
criticized Benedict, also said a resignation shouldn't be expected.
"They certainly won't let a symbolic figure like that go."
While church law allows for the resignation of a pope, there are few
precedents over the church's two millennium history. The last was by
15th-century Pope Gregory XII, and that was not over scandal but rather a
schism in the church.
I've never seen the Simpsons, but let me guess:is itthe very embodiment of antiwhite, anti-middle class, anti-father crassness?
<H2>Homer Simpson is Catholic</H2>
Posted By Staff
Date: October 19th, 2010</DIV>
Category: Nutty News</DIV>
Nutty News The Vatican - The official Vatican newspaper has declared that beer-swilling, doughnut-loving Homer Simpson and son Bart are Catholics — and what’s more, it says that parents should not be afraid to let their children watch the adventures of the little guys in yellow. That study concludes that The Simpsons is among the few TV programs for kids in which Christian faith, religion and questions about God are recurrent themes. More…
I just learned something. Did you know that destruction of borders is essential to preserving classic ameriKan religious freedom?
Bishops say government eroding religious liberty
By RACHEL ZOLL
AP Religion Writer
I'm certainly glad we have these priests to embody Christian conservatism.
I'm truly sorry for the victims in the following story, but just itching to know whether it colors in any way the survivors' opinion on the immigration fight. Catholic hierarchies openly push for open borders and insist that we've got to welcome all who pour in across them without "discrimination". This is not the first case of vocations getting maimed by border breakers by any means. How bad does it have to get for them to admit they've been dead wrong about it? Ahh, maybe the killer's contrition will make it all better.
Illegal Alien, Not Deported In Time, Gets 20 Years For Killing A Nun
The man convicted in the deadly Bristow, Va., accident that killed a nun was sentenced Friday to 20 years in prison.
Police said Carlos Martinelly-Montano, in the United States illegally, was drunk when he slammed his car into another car in 2010. The crash killed Sister Denise Mosier and injured two other nuns. He was convicted of felony murder in October -- a conviction his attorneys said they plan to appeal -- and pleaded guilty to driving while intoxicated and driving without a license.
In court Friday, Montano pleaded at length for mercy, New4's Julie Carey reported. He told the judge he has reformed in prison, found God and hopes to become a pastor.
"I'm extremely sorry for the destruction and harm I've put the sisters and their families through," Montano said. "I feel horrible about myself for what I have done. I take full responsibility for my actions and I accept my penalty."
Tuesday, April 3, 2012
Church (Popes) Against the Market
Free market Economists cringe when they read statements like those of Pope Paul VI: "If one is in extreme necessity, he has the right to procure for himself what he needs out of the riches of others." (Gaudium et Spes 69:10 , Dec. 7, 1965) and Pope John Paul II: "Private property, in fact, is under a 'social mortgage'" (Encyclical Sollicitudo rei socialis, 42, 30 December 1987).
The Protestant Left is not much better (from an economics perspective), defining capitalism as “a comprehensive system, encompassing economic, political and social realities globally, in which a relatively small elite exploits and oppresses the majority of mankind” (Craig M. Gay, 1991, With Liberty and Justice for Whom? The Recent Evangelical Debate over Capitalism, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, pp. 22-23). Fortunately, the Protestant and Catholic Right has not accepted such uninformed views. For example, the Chilean evangelical church tends to be very conservative theologically, rejecting the leftist worldview of Craig Gay and the Popes.
However, the Chilean Left is empowered and bolstered by popish doctrines which are based on socialist or communist ideologies. The papist worldview in Chile provides fertile ground for socialists, such as Camila Vallejo, to sprout like brambles. Yet this view is quite wrong, denying the facts of history and economic theory. The church did not prosper under the socialist governments of the Twentieth Century. Nor has socialism truly favored the poor.
Today's Chilean poor and Chilean churches are not better because of public policies promoted by socialists, communists and leftist ideologues. On the contrary, Chile's prosperity is due in large part to the policies of liberty: more market and less government. If churches in Chile want to thrive and alleviate the suffering of the poor, they need to support free market policies: (1) reduce government regulation, (2) privatize all universities and other public enterprises, (3) eliminate one-third of all government ministries and (4) lower taxes (especially VAT and import tariffs since, being regressive in nature, they disproportionately hurt the poor).
The free market distributes dividends to society while leftist ideology makes people pay them, creating a harder life for most of them. Therefore, Evangelicals and Catholics should support markets instead of socialism, wayward Popes and Protestant leftists notwithstanding.
Listen to Dr. Cobin's internet radio broadcast "Red Hot Chile" live on Fridays from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. Eastern Time (New York) on www.overseasradio.com. It is free to listen and iPod, iPad and other portable electronic devices are enabled.
Last edited by Nelson4; 04-04-2012 at 07:45 PM.